Sark questions - last ones

[Judy Mitchell]

Hi,
Ok, I have two questions about the shoulders on the pdf sark pattern (last sark patterns - I promise!):

I notice that the pdf pattern has sloped shoulders rather than straight across. Was that normal in 15th century Sweden? Also I notice the inset sleeve. I realize that inset sleeves were coming into fashion, 14th century outer dress fashions used them. But I'm not sure about shifts/sarks.
The reason I'm unsure is that my Danish research on shifts, even up to 18th and 19th century were still essentially a 2-gore dress (ok, a short one) with often a foldover shoulder (like a poncho - no shoulder seam) which was straight, and sleeves that were simply attached as a rectangle/trapezoid, not inset. did that make sense?

So, are the sloped shoulders and inset sleeves a modernism, or do you know of these innovations coming in at this time? I just want to make it right, that's all. [;)]

Thanks much,
-Judy

[Karin]

Judy, you seem to have studied shifts much more than I have. What do you know about 15th century shifts, and how can I learn more?

Karin

[Judy Mitchell]

Hi Karin,

I don't know anything about 15th century, that's why I want to learn. I know a lot about 10th cent, I've talked to friends who know a lot about 14th century, and I've got a great book on 18th century shifts from Denmark "Saerke, Danske bondekvinders saerke og oplod fra ca.1770 til ca.1870" by Gudrun Andresen Copenhagen: Borgen. 1976. She also published "Danske Bonde-Skjorte fra ca.1770 til ca. 1870" in 1974. They are wonderful books that show photos of artifacts, as well as line drawings and cutting diagrams (I got them through my library).

What Andresen shows is that the Danish shifts are still the same two-gore styles with straight arm/shoulder seams and underarm gussets. The sleeves have been 'prettied up' by using tucks and pleats at the shoulder point, there are often reinforcing pieces added across the shoulders, and the necklines have changed since the 10th century [;)] but they are still otherwise the same 2-gore pattern.

This is why I was wondering if the inset sleeve was actually used in the 15th century on shifts? Maybe it was to fit a tighter bodice, and then they went back to an older style? It seems odd to me, but it might have happened. I know that inset sleeves on gowns came into use in the 14th century, but shifts were still different I was told. At least in England.

I have a friend who re-enacts 16th century Landsknecht, I've also asked her if she's seen anything like this. It also seems unusual to have both an inset sleeve and an underarm gusset. The purpose of the gusset is to keep from ripping out under the arm when a curved armhole wasn't being used. It would be fascinating if both were done at the same time.

I take it there are no extant clothes that have been examined in the museums?

/Judy

[Admin]

I think that there is no "this is right" and "this is wrong", you can find allmost anything if you just search long enough. If you want to make a proper garment from any period you should look at what seems to be most common at the particular period.

There are NO remains of shirts or sarks from 15th century Scandinavia, as far as I can recall (if any of you know, please correct me), but some pictures. My personal opinion is that sloped shoulders very well may have existed, but that they probably were not as common as straight ones.

The patterns were not made to give a "correct" (what ever that means) description of the period, because you cannot really acheive that. They are more meant to be a fundament for discussions, like this one!

/Henrik

[Karin]

Thanks. I'll try to find Andersens book in a library.

Karin

[Judy Mitchell]

[quote]<i>Originally posted by Karin</i>

Thanks. I'll try to find Andersens book in a library.


Hi Karin,
You might also be interested, if you don't know of it already, in a book by Anna-Maja Nyle'n called "Foldrak:kter ur Nordiska museets samlingar". It was published in 1971 and is the Nordiska museets handlingar 77.
While it is primarily a book on regional 'folk' dress, it does discuss a bit about the history and development of each clothing layer - many times back to the 1500s- How things have changed (or not).
I really wish I could read more than the little bits I can recognize. When I was researching 17th century Swedish clothes I found 3 wonderful women who had the book and kindly read through and answered my questions on specific illustrations and sections. [:D]

/Judy

[Andersson Gunilla]

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Judy Mitchell</i>

Hi Karin,

I don't know anything about 15th century, that's why I want to learn. I know a lot about 10th cent, I've talked to friends who know a lot about 14th century, and I've got a great book on 18th century shifts from Denmark "Saerke, Danske bondekvinders saerke og oplod fra ca.1770 til ca.1870" by Gudrun Andresen Copenhagen: Borgen. 1976. She also published "Danske Bonde-Skjorte fra ca.1770 til ca. 1870" in 1974. They are wonderful books that show photos of artifacts, as well as line drawings and cutting diagrams (I got them through my library).

What Andresen shows is that the Danish shifts are still the same two-gore styles with straight arm/shoulder seams and underarm gussets. The sleeves have been 'prettied up' by using tucks and pleats at the shoulder point, there are often reinforcing pieces added across the shoulders, and the necklines have changed since the 10th century [;)] but they are still otherwise the same 2-gore pattern.

This is why I was wondering if the inset sleeve was actually used in the 15th century on shifts? Maybe it was to fit a tighter bodice, and then they went back to an older style? It seems odd to me, but it might have happened. I know that inset sleeves on gowns came into use in the 14th century, but shifts were still different I was told. At least in England.

I have a friend who re-enacts 16th century Landsknecht, I've also asked her if she's seen anything like this. It also seems unusual to have both an inset sleeve and an underarm gusset. The purpose of the gusset is to keep from ripping out under the arm when a curved armhole wasn't being used. It would be fascinating if both were done at the same time.

I take it there are no extant clothes that have been examined in the museums?

/Judy
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

I have seen the combination of inset sleeve and a gusset, but it was on a modern garment from the 1950-ies. I have been told this is called a Dior sleeve as that designer often used this construction. It was intended to make it possibel to have an extremely tight sleeve without ripping the armhole and underarm seam as soon as you moved. The conststruction is also used in clothes for dancers or actors that have very active charakters to perform.