gambeson, mid-14th cent.

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gambeson, mid-14th cent.

Inläggav Edelweiss » 12 juni 2009, 22:22

Hi [8)]
This is my first post here. I'm from Russia and totally obsessed by Sweden and its history. Actually, I study Swedish but I'm not quite sure it's good enough to communicate fluently. Our group is reenacting a small Swedish infantry troop of 1350-1360-time period.

(I'm a bit nervous since one of my compatriots misconducted himself here not long ago. I would like to apologize for him. Not all the Russians behave this way and I'm really sorry that he created such an unfriendly image [B)])

I logged in as I'm seeking for some special information.
Recently the guys from our group have started arguing on the problem of gambeson and its construction.
Some of them claim that gambeson construction with front opening (e.g. buttoned) is quite OK to use considering region and time period. Some of them say its absolutely unpropriate and Swedish infantry troopers of that time (mid-14th century) could wear only whole-cut gambesons.
Being the one of us who at least understands some words in Swedish I began to look for some specially Swedish (or at worst Scandinavian) sources (manuscripts, sculptures or pictures). But I failed to find any information.

So, I was wondering if you could help me to solve this problem.

[:I]Being a girl I'm not quite sure that I'll understand all this military stuff very well, so pleeeeeaaase could you explain as simple as possible (just like if you were explaining it to a child)

looking forward to your answers![:)]
Edelweiss
 
Inlägg: 2
Blev medlem: 12 juni 2009, 21:30
Ort: Russia

Inläggav Max Gullberg » 13 juni 2009, 08:11

Privet Edelweiss i dobra pozhalovat v nashem forume.

Ochen interesno, ja tochno tak ty no tolko v meste Shvetsii, Rosii :P

U nas dva ochen xorovogo kluba, Albrechts Bössor (http://www.albrechts.se/) i Fraternis Militia Carnis (http://www.carnis.org/) Sajti po angliskij i shvetskij.. Tam mozhno posmotrit kakie stiogenki u nas est.. I u nas v "Albrechts bössor" bolzhestvo otkrytie.. No my nemetskie/shvetskie soldati..

Tozhe xochu skazat chto manuskripti, kartinki i tak dalej iz Shvetsii v prinsipe netu ili malo.. Samie blizhie chasto est nemetskie.. Mozhno vot zdes posmotrit: http://www.albrechts.se/gallery/artifac ... allery.htm

Kstati, otkuda vy i kak nazyvaetsja? A est vkontakte?
Max Gullberg
 
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Blev medlem: 15 augusti 2004, 22:10
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Inläggav Edelweiss » 13 juni 2009, 12:39

Tack s#229; mycket Max=)

*now I really don't know what language to use since you know Russian=))but I think I'll speak English otherwise other members of this forum won't understand me

I've seen both of these web-sites of Albrechts b#246;ssor and Fraternis Militia Carnis and I've been actively using their articles and galleries to look for some helpful information. But I didn't succeed with gambesons =)

Our "boss" (the head of our group =) ) sais that there might be some hints in the "King's Mirror" (allthough it's Norwegian and 13th century, if I'm not mistaken) and in Magnus Eriksson's Landslag (the translation into English and Russian we have is not complete since Landslag was translated into English partly. Maybe there were some directoins considering how fr#228;lse and their soldiers should be equipped).

ìû èç Ìîñêâû, ìîëîäîé êëóá, íàì âñåãî 1 ãîä, íàçûâàåìñÿ "Âàðáåðã" â ÷åñòü ãîðîäà, ãäå íàøëè Áîêñòåíñêîãî ÷åëîâåêà.
íà Âêîíòàêòå ìû åñòü))ìîãó ïðèñëàòü ïðèãëàøåíèå â ãðóïïó (ìû çàêðûëèñü îò ñïàì-àòàê)
=)
Edelweiss
 
Inlägg: 2
Blev medlem: 12 juni 2009, 21:30
Ort: Russia

Inläggav Max Gullberg » 13 juni 2009, 17:51

Ah, you have a point there.. In my experience the sources concerning gambesons are rather fussy and any complete founds havnt been made in our region. Im not a 100% on this.. This weekend Albrechts Bössor is in Lund but as soon they will get back Im sure our panzarium-expert Johan Käll will get back to you..

A, zabyl skazat chto bukvy kyrilliskie ne rabotajut v etom forume.. Mozhno eshjo raz pisat pisat ili najti menja v kontakte.. Li u tebja est konjechno..
Max Gullberg
 
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Blev medlem: 15 augusti 2004, 22:10
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Inläggav Johan Käll » 15 juni 2009, 10:59

Darn.... no good things can ever come from being dubbed 'expert'... All i can say is athat i have been looking for 'Panzar' (or panzaruim) as they seems to be called in sweden.

The sources are scares indeed, but there are some mentionings about them. these sources never talks about HOW they are made though, only that they are used. I have found no pictorial swedish evidence on their looks either. This is because after the plague hit Sweden about 1350 and killed half the people living here many parishes was left devastated and poor, hence not many ordered paintings for thier churches during the later part of 14:th cent. As for book illustrations, firstly the lokaly made book where not...really that good, looking to how the illuminations looks. And secondly, many catholic works was destroyd when we converted into being protestants (used for loading muskets during 17:th cent for example), and thirdly, the books we did have
was destoryed many of them when the royal castle burned down in 18:th cent.

so... to your question about how they MIGHT have looked. During the 14:th century Sweden was a place of commerce. We had rather alot of contact with the continent and specially germany (on the easternseaboard) and the beneluxcountries and England)

The many germans in sweden (we even had to pass lawa in the towns that at least half of the burgers HAD to be swedes) mean that armour and clothing followed the north german fashion rather closely. This would be true in the bigger cities (Stockholm, Söderköping, Kalmar and so on)and its suroundings, but on the countryside there might have been a 'fashionlag' of up to 50 years. German mercenarys was rather frequantly used by both the swedes and the danes in thier wars against eachother (im not sure how much they where used in our wars against the russians/novgorodians though). These mercenaries was mostly drafted from L#252;beck and other hanseatic cities. These soldiers would influence the 'military' fashion to a great deal.

My group, Albrechts b#össor, reenacts the period 1360-1400 and we say: if it existed in northen germany, it existed in sweden.

So.... my summing up would be.... yes the swedes probobly used frontopened panzars. They used front opening on thier kyrtils, so using it on armour would not be an odd thing.

On our homepage you can se pictures of how WE have choosed to show swedish gunner infantery of later 14:th cent
www.albrechts.se



Johan käll
Albrechts Bössor
www.albrechts.se
Johan Käll
 
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Blev medlem: 28 februari 2003, 01:30
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Inläggav Johan Käll » 15 juni 2009, 12:21

The 'Landslag' only states that frealse should have 'good armour on body and extremeties'. a 'Upgioran' helmet (no one has really understood what kind of helmet this would singyfy) and 'good weapons that a man can defend oneself with'. It also states how much his horse should cost, at least (so they dont show up on old nags) and thats it.

The armour and arms for the commons is not mentioned at all in the landslag. They are breifly adressed in the earlier laws (when there was different laws for different parts of sweden) but they are sketchy at best (i have been looking at the law for the Oestgoetes and there its not mentioned at all but as a sidecomentary on a law about something else)

as i mentionen above, some ole letters and testaments mentions panzares being owned och given away. but there is nothing inicating HOW these looked.

Johan käll
Albrechts Bössor
www.albrechts.se
Johan Käll
 
Inlägg: 1644
Blev medlem: 28 februari 2003, 01:30
Ort: Sweden

Inläggav Matti » 16 juni 2009, 09:01

Well, I would like to point out that even if front opened gambesons might have been used, and surely was later on, by no mean is that mandatory.

The front opened gambesons are the norm today cause the oldest one preserved is the one of the black prince, and it#180;s of course front opened. For the late 14th century, Johans main period, I would say yes, that would be the clear norm, but for mid 14th century and before, I would say it depends.
A lower ranking soldier or even a farmer-soldier might just as well have a closed gambeson along the lines of those seen in Codex Manesse or even the older Macejowski.

Since I do a farmer between 1325-1325, I stay true to the old style. However, I am bound to disagree a bit with Johan.
It all depends on what kind of soldier you want to portray.
Matti
 
Inlägg: 1752
Blev medlem: 15 augusti 2005, 12:55
Ort: Sweden

Inläggav Johan Käll » 16 juni 2009, 14:07

you are not disagreeing at all... the question was IF we used them, and that we did. I never said they where the ONLY ones or even the most common ones used.



Johan käll
Albrechts Bössor
www.albrechts.se
Johan Käll
 
Inlägg: 1644
Blev medlem: 28 februari 2003, 01:30
Ort: Sweden

Inläggav YngveHH » 14 augusti 2009, 07:52

Hello.

As for the King's Mirror, unfortunately there is no description of the closing mechanism for the panzare there. It states merely that it should be soft and not longer than mid-thigh.

If you can read Norwegian (not too different from Swedish), there is an article on the Kongshirden homepage by Endre Fodstad which gives a rundown on the sources for textile armour in the early 14th century: http://www.kongshirden1308.no/artikler/ ... panser.htm

His conclusions are that textile armour of that period are generally not buttoned all the way down, and perhaps most often in the back. However as the sources are so scarce this is speculations.

As for late 14th century, the surviving specimens have been pointed out already, so I'll not go into those.
YngveHH
 
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Inläggav Matti » 14 augusti 2009, 09:41

I do belive they where closed on the shoulder, and have adapted mine after that. A simple leather string allows me to get my gambeson to close tighter around the neck, giving an impression pretty similar to those shown in the article of Kongshirden.
Matti
 
Inlägg: 1752
Blev medlem: 15 augusti 2005, 12:55
Ort: Sweden


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