Old Norse

[Vinlandr]

I have seen Old Norse courses offered here and there. I was curious to learn if the language taught in Old Norse courses was widespread throughout Scandinavia and eventually developed into Swedish, Norwegian, etc. I would find it more likely that there were local variants to what we call Old Norse all along that were closer to the regional languages in Scandinavia today. Anybody know about when the different languages started becoming more regionally distinct?

[Admin]

The language called Old Norse was probably a high society language spoken by the people in power position, established somtime during the 4th or 5th century, The other languag(es) spoken in Scandinavia are all lost or assimilated (exept for Saami and all its dialects). The language remained rather similar into the 12th century, but after that other influences put the Scandinavian languages in different directions. Though, the Scandinavian languages are more like dialects than languages even today.

/Henrik

[Vinlandr]

Henrik, thanks, From the perspective of a non-speaker trying to learn Swedish, it does seem there are strong similarities in the languages. I realize that is at least in part because I don't yet know and can't see the differences obvious to folks who live in Scandinavian countries. About 12th century is a helpful reply, thanks!

-Charlie aka Oli Svensson

[Mick]

I have also been informed that the most conservative of the Scandinavian languages is Icelandic. Apparently although the phonetics of the language have changed a lot, the grammar and vocabulary (barring modern inventions) are almost identical. The opinion has been voiced by Professor Edmund Gussmann, my former Historical Grammar teacher (I study English), who speaks Modern Icelandic and reads Old Icelandic.
Cheers
Mick

[Djingis Khan]

Yes scandinavian languages are more like dialects, at least Swedish and Norwegian. To be honest I understand only a little danish, but then danish are categorized as a west-nordic language (as well as Icelandic) whereas swedish and norwegian are east-nordic.

Then we have Älvdalska, which is seen as a swedish dialect but in reality it's a language of it's own, unfortunatley it's nearly extinct nowadays

Sámi is in fact devided in separate languages. For instance, South-Sámi (Ubmi-sámi/saamie) and north-sámi (davvi-sámigiella) are in fact two different languages, but within those languages there are dialects as well - it's like one dialect in each siida (community)

/Mikael

[Taffy]

I have always found danish easy to read, but hard to understand when spoken. And norwegian is easy to understand when spoken, but a bit harder to understand in writing.

[Admin]

Mikael:

South Saami and Norht Saami are about as different as at most Swedish and German (but more like Swedish and Danish), but as you say still different langages.

We must not forget either that besides Älvdalska we have Gutamål (southern Gotland) and Tornedalska (northern Sweden) that are also more different from Swedish than i.e. Swedish from Norweigan.

A good definition of the difference between dialect and language is that of intelligibility. If you can understand what somebody say with your own language you speak dialects, if you cannot understand you speak different languages. I know that the definition is rather fuzzy, but it is easier to get a grip of the subject that way.

Mick: Icelandic is not possible to understand for a speaker of any other Scandinavian language. That is, as you say, because of its archaic features. But if Danish, Swedish and Norweigan are different dialects, Icelandic is a language of its own.

/Henrik

[Vesuvius]

"A language is a dialect with a flag and an army"...

someone said. The thing is that for example Swedish and Norwegian are considered different languages on a historical basis, rather than a linguistical one.

And still today there are no "real" languistic borders, if you were to examine what I and speak it would be some kind of in-between Norwegian and Swedish. The dialects doesn't follow the rules of the main-speech... [;)]

[Djingis Khan]

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Admin</i>

Mikael:

South Saami and Norht Saami are about as different as at most Swedish and German (but more like Swedish and Danish), but as you say still different langages.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Yes sort of, I hardly understand any German (though I studied it for a couple of years at jr high). I speak some north -Sámi (davvi-sámigiella) and trust me - I hardly understand a word in South-Sámi

/Mikael

[VonGraven]

Although, i can read what is written on rune-stones from the viking age, and i know only swedish. Icelandic is similar when written, but spoken icelandic is hard to understand.

[Admin]

Djingis:

Sorry for beeing unclear. My point is that German and Swedish, though uncomprehensive inbeween, are about as alike as two languages can be without beeing the same language, or simply dialects. In comparision with an african language or a native-american one the differences are complete.

/Henrik

[GreenMan]

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Taffy</i>

I have always found danish easy to read, but hard to understand when spoken. And norwegian is easy to understand when spoken, but a bit harder to understand in writing.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
And we norwegians read danish as our own language (its almost identical in writing) but mostly understand the spoken swedish better than danish. Strange this stuff. But yes Dansih, Norwegian and Swedish is more dialects than languages. In southern norway the language is very like danish.

[Heidning]

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Djingis Khan</i>

Yes scandinavian languages are more like dialects, at least Swedish and Norwegian. To be honest I understand only a little danish, but then danish are categorized as a west-nordic language (as well as Icelandic) whereas swedish and norwegian are east-nordic.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Not exactly.
Icelandic, Faroese and Norwegian are West-Nordic.
Swedish and Danish are East-Nordic.

[Tyra]

OK, but when my dad was working for SPF and they had "Nordic-wide" conferences, the dudes from Iceland could understand and speak to the dudes from Gotland, who spoke Gutnish, without an interpreter. Maybe due to both cultures (hmmm, not really a correct term, but can't think of how to put it better)being reasonably isolated but still lingustically related to Old Norse?

[Vinlandr]

Folks, thanks for the replies, they told me what I needed to know to make a decision. I am trying to learn Swedish because I have relatives in Sweden. for now, that will be close enough to learning a language spoken by Vikings for me. As I get better at it, I will incorporate more Old Norse words to make it more authentic as I go along.

Thanks for your help!

-Kalle/Oli